What's in a dream? I mean, what elements constitute an actual dream? Is it the bizarre way that the dream flows when it changes from one scene to another in an inexplicable quick second? Or is it when you experience an actual event which is not a dream, but does feel like a dream, and suddenly realize "Shit, I ain't dreamin', man!" Well, such a thing happened to me ... on January 16, 1993, at the Butthole Surfers rehearsal/recording studio in Austin, Texas.

The Butthole Surfers, I realized many years ago, are not just a band, but a way of life. Whereas other candyass bands take two to three years to record an album, tour for half a year and then take a two year hiatus because they're ... tired, the Butthole Surfers record, record, record and, maybe, tor a little bit. It wasn't always like that. They used to record, record, record, and tour, tour, tour. I mean, really tour. But they always fond time to record.

Oh, the Butthole Surfers have a new album coming out in late March, [Independent Worm Saloon], which continues their streak of albums at six (not including four EPs and a double-live bootleg on their own label) and is probably their best to date. And, of course, it sounds nothing like their preceding albums. It's produced by a gent named John Paul Jones who was in the 1970s band Led Zeppelin.

Onwards to history, Toto ...

Fiz: You guys just signed with Capitol. How does it feel to be on a major label after so many years with an independent like Touch & Go and then, later, Rough Trade?
Paul: We thought that we were signing with Crapitol, actually. We all found out afterwards that it was Capitol, the major label, and it kinda took us by surprise.
Fiz: (sarcastically) So, it was a surprise?
Paul: I'm trying to be entertaining!
Fiz: Oh, I know. What happened with Rough Trade?
Paul: Apparently, Rough Trade's entire existence was based on getting in a position to be able to fuck the Butthole Surfers, and they fucked the Butthole Surfers. And almost doing that, they had no further reason to exist so they went belly up and took all or money with them.
King: They turned into a pillar of salt and blew away in the wind.
Paul: How poetic.
Fiz: How did you feel about your last album Piouhgd? Wasn't there a kind of backlash from your fans and the press to that album?
Paul: I never heard it because I was too busy scolding myself for that shitty-ass record.
Gibby: It was a joke on Rough Trade. That's why we put that record out.
Fiz: I don't know. There are really good moments on that ... like in "Blind Man."
Gibby: They're good jokes.
Jeff: I just liked two songs from that, and that's about it.
Paul: I think that we decided not to record in our bathroom any more after that record.
Gibby: Yeah ...
Paul: I mean, that's where it was recorded - in our bathroom.
Fiz: It was recently reissued in November. Do you want it out?
Paul: I want to put it in the garbage, actually.
Fiz: So, it's something that you'd rather not talk about?
Gibby: It's a "Catch-22!"
Fiz: Well, let's talk about the new album - Independent Worm Saloon. I've heard it. It's real good, and its got a really big sound. How did you get John Paul Jones to produce the album?
Paul: We waved around thousands of dollars in the air, and we see who's attracted by the scent.
Fiz: What was it like working with John Paul Jones?
Paul: It was fun when we set up a keyboard for him here, and we started jamming on "Kashmir."
Fiz: Wow! I once had this dream that you guys played "Kashmir" live. Did you guys record that?
Paul: No ... but the memory is etched. (points to his head)
Jeff: It's jsut what he started playing when he first plugged in the keyboard.
King: Yeah, we started out every morning with John Paul Jones doing some Gregorian Chants and then doing dances to the Fairy Queen of the Lake ... ah .. for fun.
Fiz: How did you get John Paul Jones for the record?
Paul: Well, I thought that it was a joke, you know? I kept thinking that they were hooking us up with John Paul Jones, and I kept thinking that it was going to be some short bald guy who looked like Danny Devito. He came to town, and I had to buy a Led Zeppelin book just to look at the pictures and make sure that it was really him!
King: Yeah, for sure, I thought we were being taken in by a con artist at first, that perhaps this guy pulled scams on other bands in the country, and we were falling for that ...
Paul: John Paul Jones was a victim of an imitator. He had a guy go around the world claiming to be John Paul Jones and he cold no longer go to the Philippines because of all these horrible bills racked up by the fake John Paul Jones.
Fiz: Kinda like the fake Nikki Sixx and fake Peter Criss, huh?
Paul: I'm not familiar with that tribe.
Fiz: But, guys ... what was it like to meet him? Had you met him before?
Paul: No. I went to pick him up at the airport, and I knew what flight he was coming in on. I thought it wold be first class, so I waited by the gate. I didn't know who was John Paul Jones. I went to the baggage pick up, and I was looking around and asking people if they were John Paul Jones. "No." "No." "No." So, I went and paged him, and there he was standing about three feet from me. I was expecting bellbottoms and long hair and mudbuttons ...
Fiz: So, Gibby, from what I understand, you saw Led Zeppelin lots of times?
Gibby: Not a lot of times. I saw them once. Third row seats.
Fiz: Where was this?
Gibby: In front of the speakers.
Fiz: What year?
Gibby: I don't know. It was their ... theremin tour. Physical Graffiti was one of their best records.
Paul: Led Zeppelin II was their best ...
Gibby: I know, I know. But I couldn't believe that they could make a good record after that. That was a killer record.
Paul: I had to listen to "In Through the Out Door" last night. Cracked me up. I never heard that record until two weeks ago.
Gibby: That's not a bad record either ... just different.
Fiz: Any possibility of a lyric sheet for the next record?
Paul: It's possible but it will not happen.
Gibby: I think that it's stupid. Bands don't put music on their records. They don't put music charts there. Why should they put fucking lyrics. It's like going to see a movie and then you get to watch ...
Paul: ... what you said.
Gibby: Yeahhhh!
Fiz: Well, from a fan's point of view, it would be cool to know what Gibby's saying in "Eye of the Chicken."
Jeff: Well, Gibby can't remember what he said after he does it.
Gibby: I've always been a fan of mispronouncing lyrics to songs. I always thought it was Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Spice.
Jeff: Gibby's got a whole game made up. It's a Joy Division game.
King: Yeah, the boys want to have a game show where we can play snippets of Joy Division songs and they can try to guess what Ian Curtis is saying. You get points for correct answers and more points for better answers which are incorrect.
Fiz: Wasn't their biggest hit "Love Will Tear Us Apart"?
Paul: But it's not their best. Their best song is "She Lost Control."
Fiz: Hey, listen to this-if you were offered a slot on MTV Unplugged here's my set list for you guys: "Hey!", "Gary Floyd," "Cherub," "To Parter," "Creep in the Cellar," "Pittsburgh to Lebanon," "Graveyard," "Jimi (acoustic version)," "Ricky," "Rocky," "1401," "Lonesome Bulldog" ...
Gibby: How many fucking songs are we going to play?
Paul: Why don't you name the songs we don't play!
King: I feel sweaty right now. I want to take a shower....
Jeff: King's got gig-butt just from hearing those titles...
Fiz: ... "The Wooden Song," "Goofy's Concern" and "The Ballad of Naked Man." The last song that I heard on the album is "The Beat Press."
Paul: "Beat the Press?" A minute and a half of vomiting by thirty people?
Fiz: Right.
Paul: It's not on the album. However, it is on the new CMJ compilation as our representative among "new, up-and-coming groups to look out for."
Fiz: Oh, they're so hip, aren't they? You guys are so new.
King: Yeah, it's cool. We're right before The The. I hope they appreciate it.
Paul: That song was met by some very severe criticism from Capitol Records. That was the one song that they really hated.
Gibby: Any song they hate, they really hate, though. Then they hate other songs. In fact, they would really hate them.
King: In fact, it rates up there with some of the best experimental parts of the Pet Sounds LP...
Fiz: Well, thanks to Garth Brooks you guys got signed.
Gibby: "The House That Brooks Bought."
Fiz: Claire, who used to be in the Honeymoon Killers, says "Hello!"
Paul: Oh, yeah! Claire! I was thinking about her the other day!
Gibby: I thought you were from San Francisco, but you're from L.A.?
Fiz: Yeah.
Gibby: Oh, nuts!
Fiz: Who says "You're going to die up there" in "Tongue ?"
Paul: Rachel.
Fiz: Who's Rachel?
Gibby: Wendy's daughter.
Fiz: Who's Wendy?
Gibby: She works for Dick.
Paul: ...who's a friend of Howie's.
(Laughter)
Gibby: And he knows the Butthole Surfers.
(Much Laughter)
Fiz: What was the motivation behind the drawings on the "Hairway to Steven" album? Abe Vigoda?
Gibby: "Stuck in a pagoda/with Tricia Toyota."
Fiz: How did you know that?
Gibby: I've got a telepathic memory, but I don't have a photographic memory. I've got a Radon-type memory. I've got the disease in which you wake up and don't know wehre you are.
Fiz: Alzheimer's disease? Muhammad Ali? Paul, what were we talking about before I changed the subject?
Paul: Horses urinating? Rats defecating. Naked man with erection urinating throws baseball to woman with bat defecating.
Fiz: Who drew all those?
Gibby: Lyla.
Fiz: Wyla?
Gibby: Watlo.
Fiz: Yeah, you guys had a song called "New Watlo," but the title changed.
Paul: Is it called "Some Dispute Over T-Shirt Sales?"
Fiz: Yeah, why is it called that?
Gibby: Because that's the name of the song.
Fiz: Is "Chewin' George Lucas' Chocolate" inspired by Cheech and Chong?
Gibby: Probably. Yeah, because that's when I was in Junior High. Ha! Ha! Ha!
Jeff: Yeah , we got the title because we were recording across the valley from the Skywalker ranch.
Fiz: Who does the cop's voice?
Paul: Howie.
Jeff: He did the burp for E.T.
Paul: Pepsi belch. Good voice, huh?
Fiz: Paul, you recently produced the Bad Livers [Touch & Go's bluegrass crazymen] album Delusions of Banjeur and you sang on "The Adventures of Pee Pee the Sailor."
Paul: I sang background on that. I wrote the song and produced it so they had to be polite and let me sing back up on it.
Gibby: They were the best band that we ever toured with, not to slag anyone else, but they happen to be the best.
Paul: They're the most fun to be with.
Jeff: We can actually watch them without burning our ears out before the set. They played two hours backstage before they went on and two hours after they got kicked out...
Paul: And they'd get kicked out into the street and keep playing.
Fiz: Gibby, I heard that you're producing the next Reverend Horton Heat [rockabilly, gonzo, double-live madman] record for Sub Pop?
Gibby: It's already done.
Fiz: What's the title of the album?
Gibby: I think it's called "Beer-Thirty." I'm surprised no one's used that yet. I offered them one hundred bucks if I could name the record and they were like "Yeah!...No!" Ha! Ha! Ha!
Fiz: How did you meet them? Are they locals?
Gibby: They're from Dallas. Horton's been around for a long time. Armpit worms. The album comes out in April.
Fiz: Luis Bunuel [who is he?????].
Gibby: Yes. Bunuel. The cut eye scene.
Fiz: How did that come about?
Gibby: I was just talking to Jim (the bass player) at a bar one night. The Continental Club. I was saying "If I did your album blah blah blubber" and then Sub Plop called me up. Sub Pop is a cool label. They forgot to pay me and everything for the record, but I won't hold it against them. Do you know about the Nirvana/Killing Joke similarities? It's the same thing that I did for our first record. I was trying to imitate particular songs. I was trying to play them and steal them, but, however, I didn't have the musical ability to do it. I tried to do what Nirvana did, but I couldn't do it. Maybe it would have sold four million records. (laughs) Rumor has it that Nirvana used to write Killing Joke fan letters.
King: And Christmas cards.
Gibby: Ok, so where's the ... I don't know what you mean. It's just the back of their head? "My Sweet Lord."
Fiz: King, you have a label called Trance.
King: You have lice, also. Yeah, there's a Love and Napalm [compilation] LP with all the bands on the label and a John Boy LP.
Gibby: They're like Walton Zimbalist. What's his full name, King? Isn't it Elton John Boy George Michael Jackson Browne.
King: It should be. Fucking A. Wow!!
Paul: Herb Alpert Gore Vidal Sasson.
Fiz: Are the JackOfficers [one of Gibby's many side gigs] still operating?
Gibby: They played last week.
Fiz: What club?
Gibby: Club "Woof."
Fiz: Is Digital Dump [JackOfficers recording] going to be re-released?
Gibby: No, the JackOfficers are always working on new shit, though.
Fiz: Like your solo album, Paul, the History of Dogs is that going to be reissued?
Paul: No.
Fiz: Why not?
Paul: It sucks.
Fiz: Daddy Longhead, Jeff, what's going on with your band?
Jeff: We just played three shows with the Didjits.
Fiz: What club?
Gibby: Woof.
(Laughter)
Jeff: At Emo's Houston and Emo's Austin and at Club No up in Dallas. Really fun shows.
Fiz: Are you going to be touring soon?
Jeff: I don't think we have much time to do any touring right now. We have a whole album's bunch to record.
Fiz: So, maybe later thsi year the new album will come out?
Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, I really like the new songs.
Paul: Helios Creed plays guitar on the album. The most notable of the songs is called "Clean It Up."
Gibby: In which we finally got the pleasure to jam with Helios Creed.
Paul: You can tell that his guitar really stands out like Helios.
Jeff: It's like a catfight at the end.
Fiz: I really liked the cover that you guys did of "Whipping Post" by the Allman Brothers. Is there any chance of another live video like "Blind Eye Sees All" coming out?
Gibby: Yes, a huge chance.
Fiz: One of the best shows that I ever saw was the Butthole Surfers in Phoenix, Arizona. You got me in. My friends and I were the only people on the list.
Gibby: You mean the Meat Puppets were out of town that day? Ha! Ha!
Paul: Hell, Meat Puppets don't need a guest list. They own that town. Chris [Kirkwood] told me. He almost ran a lady down over at the airport and said "It's alright, I own this town." He yelled at her to shape up because she was slouching over and then commented to another fellow that he was looking good. "Fuck you, big boy, I own this town!"
Gibby: I was sort of a Led Zeppelin fan because when I was growing up, Chuck Holly was a member of the Dallas Cowboys, and I snuck into his backyard one time and stole the hoses of the Hollys.
Fiz: El Duce said that the next Mentors record is going to be called Houses of the Horny. Did you ever meet El Duce?
Gibby: As a matter of fact, he hovered above or tower one time, and Paul said, "Are you gonna kick my ass?" and he goes, "No!" I asked him, "Is it true that all your songs are about anal sex?" and he goes, "No! ... well ... Yeah!"
(Laughter)
Fiz: I heard this story that he died, and they jump started him back to life, and that he even played a show the next day with marks on his chest and drunk.
King: So, God told El Duce that his time had come and he had to come back and play with the Mentors?
Gibby: Did he follow the beer tunnel? No, the bar's closed.
Fiz: When does the next tour start?
Paul: Ah ... May and June in the United Stated, July and August in Europe, September and October in Japan and Australia and New Zealand.
Gibby: And then back to the United States again.
Fiz: Cool.
Paul: Until we're rich. We'll stop when we're rich.
Gibby: They say from two hundred to a million is the hardest.
Fiz: You guys were the most successful indie touring band in the mid-80s.
Paul: We were suck-cessful.
Fiz: But all you shows in L.A. sold out.
Gibby: Which means we should have been playing bigger venues, goddamn it!
Fiz: John Anson Ford in 1988 was another great show. Do you remember that?
Gibby: No, but Gary Tovar was the best promoter we ever had. We have to write his ass a letter soon.
Fiz: How was Lollapalooza for you guys?
Gibby: It was fun/not fun and good/bad.
Jeff: It was a lot of practicing every day and then drinking some whiskey because they gave us a whole bunch of it, and then we'd pass out. We'd then wake up in time for the end of the show where we would get everyone together and then leave.
Paul: Wake up half-way through your own set.
Jeff: After a cup of coffee or a shot of whiskey.
Fiz: It's just really strange to see you guys during the daylight. I mean the night shows are awesome.
Paul: Strange for us as well. I had no idea we looked that ugly.
Jeff: Yeah, we saw video footage of that. It was scary.
Fiz: In the last Lollapalooza, you did "The T.V. Song" with Ministry live. Why couldn't they do "Jesus Built My Hotrod?"
Gibby: They didn't have the DAT. No, I'm kidding. They just didn't practice that.
Fiz: That's a great song. How many takes did you do of that?
Gibby: About eight.
Fiz: Is it true that you came into their studio and got drunk...
Gibby: I was not drunk! Yeah, basically. Yeah.
Fiz: Was it fun and would you do something with them in the future?
Gibby: Yes and yes. They're even moving to Austin, I think. They're stone cold chillin', I think.
Fiz: What's been going on since Lollapalooza for you guys?
Paul: We recorded an album with John-Motherfucking-Paul-Motherfucking-ass-Jones.
Fiz: How long did it take to record?
Gibby: Two-motherfuckinggoddamnedmotherweenieballmonths. Motherfuckinggoddamnedfuckingdamnitfuck.
Fiz: What was the inspiration for "Tongue?" It's so Buffalo Springfield.
Gibby: The song. We live in our own little world. The art exists in a vacuum.
(Sirens)
Fiz: I hate cops!
Gibby: Speaking of cops, I was in an apartment with the garage raised on 6th street in Austin, and in an alleyway behind there, a friend of mine's dog came out-a Great Dane with perked-up ears and a wagging tail-and a cop cruised up on a motorcycle and the dog came up to him and kinda barked and the cop pulls his gun. (Laughter) I was like "What were you going to do ... shoot the dog?"
Jeff: The dog was probably listening to "Cop Killer."
Paul: I saw this little six-week old kitten out on Infield Road, in the middle of the road, and I swerved to avoid hitting this little kitten and Caroline, my wife, was going "We've got to stop and get that kitten." And I said, "Just grin and bare it." This morning I was driving by the same road and there's this little black fucking pile of fur ...
(Screams all around)
Gibby: Oh, you asshole! That's forty hours in purgatory, Paul!
Fiz: Are you going to be using more films in your live shows?
Gibby: I think that next time we'll show different films. New films and we'll probably use it for a portion of the show and then we'll do the lights and other effects. It's hard to depend on the films because when they fuck up ... they don't always work.
Fiz: I like the version of "American Woman" that came out with the video.
Gibby: "Colored guys get hypnotized/Sparkle someone else's eyes. Woman." Those are the lyrics to the Guess Who song.
Fiz: Is this the first time you were produced by an outside source?
Gibby: Yes. No. Yes. Yeah, it was the first time, but we've had different people mix our stuff. Andy Wallace mixed a couple of our tunes.
Fiz: Paul, watch out! You're the Hendrix of the 1990s! Soon you'll be on the cover of Guitar Player magazine ...
Gibby: That's what we need. The simuthing. Paul on the cover of Guitar magazine, Jeff on the cover of Bass Player, King on the cover of Drum magazine...
Paul: Modern Heirloom magazine...
Jeff: Do they have a Ball Weight Magazine?
Gibby: Yeah, it's called Swingers. Swingers Unlimited.
King: I like Swank for the classiest asses around.
Paul: Over 50 is my personal favorite.
Jeff: Yeah, they have Over 60 if that's not enough for you!
Fiz: Are you happy with the new album?
Paul: It's the best sounding record since Locust Abortion Technician.
Gibby: The next album's not going to sound big, but bigoted.
Jeff: Oh, yeah! We're missing the KKK rally right now!
Fiz: Are you guys going to be putting albums out more frequently?
Gibby: Yes and no.
Paul: Yeah. That's going to come to an end. There's too much money we need to spend.
Gibby: We need the money to make the next album sound bigger.
King: The next album is going to be a four-track recorded by Kurt Cobain.
Fiz: Are you guys thinking about moving from Austin?
Jeff: Sure. We're all going to have our ... spreads.
Paul: I want to move to San Francisco.
Gibby: I like the sights and sounds of Ojai, personally.
Fiz: So, who wrote most of the songs for the new album?
Paul: I did. Everybody else was under my erection. I didn't even know why I credited them with anything. I did it all.
Fiz: What brought about "The Ballad of Naked Man?"
Paul: I think that John Paul Jones wanted Jeff out of the control room, so he told him to go write a song. Then when he did write a song, he felt compelled to participate in it. (He plays bass on the track). That and the naked man who appeared eventually every afternoon at 4:00.
Gibby: Viking a genius. Viking a genius. Get a marijuana, my friend, and go follow, you understand? Acid casualty one too many, genius. The sign of a plodded...
Paul: Have you heard of Corinthean Dog-Nose Leather? It's kind of a ripoff of Bandsaw Hampshire.
Fiz: You guys have a lot of unreleased songs. Is there any chance of an outtakes album of some sort?
King: Yeah, we're talking about a singles club kind of thing. Doing a single a year from every year that we've been around. I think we'll do it.
Gibby: I'm going to git Corey Rusk up for a Buttholes box on CD with the first two records.
Paul: Man, I'd be into that.
Gibby: But you've got to dangle that extra CD of unreleased stuff. That's what everybody does. The whole box set thing is just an incentive to buy everything again.
Fiz: How many unreleased songs do you guys have?
Gibby: 375.
Fiz: From past interviews, I read that you guys have shoe boxes full of unrealeased tapes.
Gibby: Yeah. Ya wanna see them, fuckworth?
(They open a locked door which is chock-full of all types of tapes-reels, cassettes, videos, etc. There are so many tapes taht it would be inconceivable to start looking. I'm completely overwhelmed!)
King: Here's your catalog. You can take cool spy photographs.
Gibby: That doesn't include cassettes of all of our practices including the very first one which is down there (in a shoebox).
King: (reading off unreleased titles) "Matchstick." "Sinister Crayon," "White, Dumb, Ugly, and Poor," "Just a Boy," ...
(They then play a new song they recorded for a film directed by Alex Winter from the original 24-track master. It sounds like prime Buttholes. It reminds me of the classic "To Parter.")
Fiz: Wow! What's that called?
Gibby: [indecipherable]
Paul: (showing me his new Silvertone guitar) You don't give a fuck about my guitar!
Fiz: How many guitars do you own, Paul?
Paul: A bunch. About twenty. This one I really like because its got the Dan Electro pickups. I didn't use it for the last album, but I found it in the closet and now it's my favorite. I'd brag about my Gibson, but those fuckers won't give me an endorsement. Fuck those guys. It's one of five hundred made. So those fuckwads won't give me a free fucking guitar because "I'm not good enough!"
Fiz: What inspired you to write "To Parter?"
Paul: We were practicing in New York three stories below the boardwalk in this place that had been used as a Civil War jail, and our bass player at the time threw a temper tantrum and stormed out. Then Farner got kidnapped by some people and left on the roof until our friend, Alan, found her and returned her to us. Then everybody went home and ... we came up with that melody. But it was a stupid song. Fuck. They are all stupid melodies.
Fiz: How about the songs "Nee Nee" and "Ghandi?" They were supposed to be on the new album.
Paul: Those songs are coming out on a 10-inch vinyl only release to be sent out to college radio stations.
Fiz: I heard that there was a problem with the cover?
Paul: They asked for something gross. We gave them something gross and they thought that it was too gross. The photo wasn't even that gross, though. We weren't even trying. Shit! It's just some picture of a guy with his balls swelled up to the size of a Volkswagen. (laughter)
Fiz: King, what kind of a drumset do you own?
King: Gretsch. Teresa [previous Butthole drummer] used to have a Tama.
Fiz: And Jeff, what type of bass do you fancy?
Jeff: I have about eight or nine basses.
Fiz: What's up with Teresa?
Jeff: She was with this band called the Deadbeat Girlfriends. Otherwise she's doing well.
Gibby: I was just thinking about her yesterday. I like to dial her parent's number because it sounds like a Crosby, Stills and Nash song.
Fiz: Well, dudes, thanks for the interview and Abe Vigoda.